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“One of the factors promoting excess cortisol production is intestinal irritation, causing absorption of endotoxin and serotonin. Fermentable fibers (including pectins and fructooligosaccharides) support the formation of bacterial toxins, and can cause animals to become anxious and aggressive. Fed to horses, some types of fiber increase the amount of serotonin circulating in the blood. Grains, beans, and other seeds contain fermentable fibers that can promote intestinal irritation.
The liver has several ways to detoxify endotoxin and serotonin, but these can fail as a result of poor nutrition and hypothyroidism.” -Ray Peat
Im not sure if thats true. For me. Eating enough calories as fruits gives me liver pain. Starches are fabulous
I do think in some states of health starches can be good, 100%. I imagine a healthier liver I’d be able to eat lots of fruit. But fruit do also have a lot of water which can slow the metabolism?
I had lamb today and I feel so depressed. I didn’t realise red meat actually makes you feel so depressed. this is awful. vegan it is. ive basically been vegan for like a few weeks now i didnt realsie how much less depressed i felt.
is it possible my gut micriobiome has changed to the point i cant handle meat anymore? might stick to the leafy greens and carbs.
On Sept 14th-
“Charlies supplement stack and a vegan diet is saving my life. When I first started this I would get awful nausea and liver pain. Now it’s reducing.”
On Sept 20th-
“I had lamb today and I feel so depressed. I didn’t realise red meat actually makes you feel so depressed.”
If you really think a vegan diet was “saving your life,” why would you eat lamb a week later? A vegan diet means no animal products of any kind. No meat, milk, eggs, gelatin, nada. Even honey might be off the table. Vegetarians, on the other hand, often incorporate milk and eggs.
You simply can’t be a vegan if you eat meat every so often. Of course, you don’t have to eat according to anyone else’s definitions, either. You could eat plant based most of the time, and eat some animal foods or meat once a week, once a month, or on whatever frequency you choose. But don’t call yourself a vegan, because that’s not what a vegan is.
Of course, if you do choose to eat meat on a very infrequent basis, it would also be wise to keep the serving of meat very small when you do eat, or ramp it up. If you eat nothing but plants for a month, and then decide to chow down on a 20 oz porterhouse, yeah, the sheer amount and shock to the system might be bad. But, if you instead opt for 1-2 oz of meat, your body might handle it fine. If you eat meat on a more regular basis (say, 2-3 times a week), my guess is that your body would ramp up appropriate enzymes and such after a week or so, and you could regularly handle meat with no physiological issues after a month or so.
Also, I think you might be setting yourself up for feeling bad anytime you do eat meat (which seems to be quite often for an aspiring vegan). Maybe the reason you feel so horrible every time you eat meat is that you are making yourself feel horrible, basically beating yourself up every time you break one of your own rules. It might not have anything to do with your body’s physiology, or your body’s biological reactions to eating meat, but all about your mental perception about eating meat. This could easily drive you crazy on it’s own.
Basically, if you convince yourself that you’ll feel terrible any time you eat meat, you will find some way to make yourself feel terrible when you eat meat.
I do want to stick to the vegan lifestyle as a longer term goal but I wanted to try the meat to see how I do if I eat it as a one off
I think the depression might be a placebo type thing but the liver symptoms, definitely not. I still get them if I eat too much coconut oil or sugar from plant foods so theres that
im quite happy my little experiment seems to be paying off. I think its limiting fat both zero PUFA and very low sat fat as well as eating boat loads of fibre that is helping. Also plant proteins not animal proteins (low methionine)?
i may not be the healthiest and its hard to explain and organise my thoughts. but I know one day I will be healthy and all will make sense
my main focus Zack is around the liver? I dealt with pretty ‘autistic’ symptoms as a child and possibly still do? I found out that liver disease can be the source of these symptoms?? Which makes almost zero sense but apparently somehow it can cause that.
“I do want to stick to the vegan lifestyle as a longer term goal but I wanted to try the meat to see how I do if I eat it as a one off”
Doing things as a “one off” experiment really won’t tell you much about how your body will react longer term. When people do a change in diet, it usually takes a week to maybe a month before they can really assess any changes. Whenever scientific experiments do a crossover design testing a couple different protocols (whether diet, supplement, drug, exercise or other), they include a “washout” period of at least two weeks, so as to better separate results.
Also, you seem to have only been trying to go vegan for a few months or so. If you are already wanting to do “one off” experiments with meat (something you seem to have tried many times in your life already), then some part of you clearly doesn’t want to go vegan.
Note, many vegans notice a mental sort of decline over time. This can happen for a variety of reasons (maybe not enough B12, protein, poor digestion, lack of certain vitamins/enzymes found in animal foods, anemia, hypoglycemia or something else). If you are already starting to notice that it is hard to organize your thoughts after this little time, this should give you serious pause. What’s more important in this lifetime that your ability to think? Lierre Keith in “The Vegetarian Myth” noted that many vegans she knew had mental issues when she was vegan herself, and also had issues with anxiety and depression, as well as memory issues. You might want to review her book to see the potential downsides of veganism, before you attempt to dedicate several decades of your life to what is a relatively new and novel way of eating for humans (the idea of veganism has only been around for 60 years or so).
The organising thought problems I have always had. Its getting better with a vegan diet. Fast.
I dont think theres many problems other than B12. Cows eat no meat yet cow meat has b12. You can get iron and protein all from plant foods. In fact a vegan diet might be slightly lower in iron but thats pretty peaty anyways
one thing stopping me going vegan is raw meat. I don;t know why but ground lamb with onion and raw egg tastes so good even if it makes me feel worse
im eating ground lamb on a sandwhich as we speak
@questforhealth “wow i cant even post what i wanted to say?”
I have not stopped you from posting Quest.
I think the forum was glitching really bad when that was happening. I would post my post then it would vanish
hmm so about B12
is it possible I can get it from soil and muddy vegetable bacteria
or should I maybe add some skim milk/low fat yogurt to my diet??? then I can eat beans, carbs, vegetables and some low fat dairy at most? the best I ever felt I was eating beans, starches and wholefat dairy but im pretty sure the fat causes issues over time
SOOOO add nofat dairy to my experiment. or lean meat?? @Zack vegas any idea about game meat??
I also notice fruit sugar makes me feel manic energy but starches are a slow nice release? Also about endotoxin apparently saturated fat or fats in general can cause endotoxemia? so more points for low fat?
https://diabetesjournals.org/care/article/41/8/1732/36380/Saturated-Fat-Is-More-Metabolically-Harmful-for @Zack vegas
obviously they are pushing PUFA but we know that isn’t the best but still an interesting read. fairly pro sugar too.
im getting the impression we aren’t meant to eat lots of fats no matter the type. better eat lean proteins and carbs / sugars?? I just feel like an idiot for not realising wholemilk was probably causing me problems. I’ve always instinctually disliked fatty food but I went against my intution like an idiot overthinking. I’ve always hated butter, oils, fats of any sort
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